Hello,

ran into a discussion with a pilot-friend-of-mine on sunday about how to set
up our GNS430 on a short IFR Trip.

I prefer a North-Up mode, because it makes it easier for me to corelate
what's on the screen with the paper-charts I have on my kneeboard.

He wanted it to be in either Track-Up or (me complaining about a
too-frequent need for redraw) Desired-Track-Up mode. Reason was he wanted
the screen helping him to build a "mental-picture" about what's ahead and
around.

No consens was found so I would like to hear from you: are your a "North-Up"
or a "Track-Up" sort of pilot (explanation why you are would help)?

Best Regards

Kai

--
Return address is invalid to help stop junk mail.

> No consens was found so I would like to hear from you: are your a
> "North-Up" or a "Track-Up" sort of pilot (explanation why you are
> would help)?

I'm with your friend on Track Up; the map orients itself as to the direction
one is going. For that matter, I rotate paper maps to agree with my
heading; it makes things much simpler to see what's ahead. Simplification =
better for me, especially in a cockpit.

It's just a preference thing though, neither is "right" or "wrong".

North up. Helps me know where I am for position reports. You know like
"East of airport" "south west of VOR'.

"Kai Glaesner" > wrote in message
m...
> Hello,
>
> ran into a discussion with a pilot-friend-of-mine on sunday about how to
> set
> up our GNS430 on a short IFR Trip.
>
> I prefer a North-Up mode, because it makes it easier for me to corelate
> what's on the screen with the paper-charts I have on my kneeboard.
>
> He wanted it to be in either Track-Up or (me complaining about a
> too-frequent need for redraw) Desired-Track-Up mode. Reason was he wanted
> the screen helping him to build a "mental-picture" about what's ahead and
> around.
>
> No consens was found so I would like to hear from you: are your a
> "North-Up"
> or a "Track-Up" sort of pilot (explanation why you are would help)?
>

As a student: North up.

1. Since grade-school we look at maps north-up. Perhaps also because part
of job involved geography. Knowing which direction is where when north-up
has become ingrained.
2. No twisting of charts on kneeboard to track, then twisting back to read
text. Twisting to track-up only required in those rare cases where
absolutely impossible to orient self from north-up chart. Since situational
awareness is not a problem with a GPS (right?), track-up not required at
all.
3. North-up assures instant confirmation of direction of flight on GPS. If
take a detour, (instructed or otherwise), while GPS is on short-range
display, track-up may momentarily confuse that part of situational
awareness.
4. Display tells me instantly which direction I am from airport for initial
contact with tower.
5. Reduced chance of mis-identifying runways (directions) when display in
vicinity of airport.

In spite of the fact that many, perhaps most, instructional texts for us
students tend to suggest track-up.

Somebody, convince me!

I teach track up. I would have you rotate your paper charts so they
show track up. I think its much less confusing.

-Robert, CFI

Kai,

> are your a "North-Up"
> or a "Track-Up" sort of pilot (explanation why you are would help)?
>

I'm with you - for the same reason you give. Also, the constantly
reorienting map is confusing to me. But it is really a matter of taste.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Buy a GPS. It will do this for you, you just read the position off the
GPS. :)

I used to be a fan of "desired track up" until, on an IFR approach, the
map unexpectedly reoriented itself to the next "desired track" up when I
activated the approach just past one of the waypoints. It was hard to
reorient myself, and I'm now a fan of track up. But one can get used to
either way.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Seems to me, as a broad general proposition:

1) Consistent use of North up is better for longer-term navigation or
course planning, when you're zoomed out on the map and asking, "Where am
I in the big picture?" or "What course should I take to reach a given
(distant) destination?" (or to avoid things I should avoid).

Better chance of identifying major landmarks (lakes, mountain peaks)
correctly and understanding the broad situation.

2) Track up better for short-term maneuvering, when you're asking "What
should I be looking for, and what maneuver do I have to make, in the
next few minutes?"

I suppose optimum might be a rapid way to toggle between the two views
-- with (*very* important) some kind of obvious (and standard) visual
difference in the two views that will unmistakably clue you as to which
display mode you're in.

This argument is almost as insolvable as the "Newton or Bernoulli" or "high
vs low wing" ones. This one basically comes down to how much testosterone
you got in the womb. Male preference is for north-up while female
preference is for track-up, generally (all who are going to add how they are
an exception can save the typing - this is a gross generalization). The
argument, however is moot and pointless. Whatever works for you and keeps
you from getting lost is the way to do it. There is no "right" way no
matter what anybody tells you. It's all in how your particular brain is
configured and processes information. I used to get horribly lost following
the North-up method until I switched to Track-up. I still get lost, just
not so horribly! :-)

A humorous look at the whole thing is in a book that should be mandatory
reading for humans, "Why Men Don't Listen and Why Women Can't Read Maps".
Pick up a copy and it'll make your life a whole lot simpler, especially if
you're married!

Shawn

"Kai Glaesner" > wrote in message
m...
> Hello,
>
> ran into a discussion with a pilot-friend-of-mine on sunday about how to
> set
> up our GNS430 on a short IFR Trip.
>
> I prefer a North-Up mode, because it makes it easier for me to corelate
> what's on the screen with the paper-charts I have on my kneeboard.
>
> He wanted it to be in either Track-Up or (me complaining about a
> too-frequent need for redraw) Desired-Track-Up mode. Reason was he wanted
> the screen helping him to build a "mental-picture" about what's ahead and
> around.
>
> No consens was found so I would like to hear from you: are your a
> "North-Up"
> or a "Track-Up" sort of pilot (explanation why you are would help)?
>
> Best Regards
>
> Kai
>
> --
> Return address is invalid to help stop junk mail.
>
>

"Robert M. Gary" > writes:

>I teach track up. I would have you rotate your paper charts so they
>show track up. I think its much less confusing.

And it prevents boredom in holds.

--kyler

Kai Glaesner > wrote:

> Reason was he wanted
> the screen helping him to build a "mental-picture" about what's ahead and
> around.

Track up.

I have both NEXRAD (actually WSI's NOWRAD) and traffic displayed on an
MX20. Combine these two with projected GPS course line and predicted
actual track while flying an IFR approach and IME track up provides a much
more intuitive situational picture.

I do not have to perform mental gymnastics of flipping the picture in my
head when scanning the MX20 during the approach.

--
Peter
























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ShawnD2112 > wrote:

> Male preference is for north-up while female
> preference is for track-up, generally (all who are going to add how they are
> an exception can save the typing - this is a gross generalization).

Gross generalization or not, where did you get this theory? I suppose you
don't have an Internet reference to educate those of us equipped with an
apparent female preference, eh?

--
Peter
























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AES wrote:
> Seems to me, as a broad general proposition:
>
> 1) Consistent use of North up is better for longer-term navigation or
> course planning, when you're zoomed out on the map and asking, "Where am
> I in the big picture?" or "What course should I take to reach a given
> (distant) destination?" (or to avoid things I should avoid).
>
> Better chance of identifying major landmarks (lakes, mountain peaks)
> correctly and understanding the broad situation.
>
> 2) Track up better for short-term maneuvering, when you're asking "What
> should I be looking for, and what maneuver do I have to make, in the
> next few minutes?"

Excellent analysis. This is why I use both sectional/Low Alt chart and GPS.
I always fold the map(s) to a reasonable sized rectangle to get the big
picture enroute, alwyas North Up. The GPS is Track Up but a much smaller
area than the sectiona and/or Low Alt. chart. I can always tilt the chart
as needed if I want a track relative view, no biggie.

Situational awareness is the key... whatever works go for it. But I never
fly without charts, even though I do love the GPS, I still follow my progress
on the chart.

kontiki > wrote:

> But I never
> fly without charts, even though I do love the GPS, I still follow my progress
> on the chart.

I agree. During a series of very long flights across the US, I found the
VFR WACs extremely valuable in assisting with actual fuel consumption as
well as the usual array of valuables the charts offer.

Flying west across the US last May, I often received direct to a waypoint
(always VORs) that was one-to-many waypoints deep into my flight plan.
This would "cut a corner or two" off my flight plan, saving me a few
minutes, but it always threw off my planned fuel usage.

Due to the length of each flight, it was important to me to compare actual
to planned fuel usage at each waypoint. Using the WACs, I was able to
create a virtual waypoint directly along my new course that approximated
the skipped VOR.

As I crossed this virtual waypoint (defined by a radial off the skipped
VOR), I would note it in the flight log and then compare actual to planned
fuel usage.


--
Peter
























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Erm, He's talking about the Garmin-430 GPS....

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Buy a GPS. It will do this for you, you just read the position off the
> GPS. :)
>

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> I teach track up. I would have you rotate your paper charts so they
> show track up. I think its much less confusing.
>
> -Robert, CFI
>

funny how this topic keeps coming back; it seems that it depends
on how your brain is wired and that is not much you can do change
someone's mind about that; for me, north up is much less confusing
than having to twist the chart around, even if the chart does the
twisting for me (and change the orientation of the labels) as would
a GPS moving map display do because I do the twisting in
my head anyway, looking at a chart / display with track up forces
me to do a 'double twisting' of sort if you see what I mean :-)
Reminds me of endless hours of fun (i.e., arguments) while driving
around the country with an *ex* girlfriend of mine... :-)

--Sylvain

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> I teach track up. I would have you rotate your paper charts so they
> show track up. I think its much less confusing.

You wouldn't have been my instructor for long.

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

Peter R. wrote:
> ShawnD2112 > wrote:
>
>> Male preference is for north-up while female
>> preference is for track-up, generally (all who are going to add how
>> they are an exception can save the typing - this is a gross
>> generalization).
>
> Gross generalization or not, where did you get this theory? I
> suppose you don't have an Internet reference to educate those of us
> equipped with an apparent female preference, eh?

I doubt he can supply a link to his theory source unless his ass has an IP
connection.

I went to track up because if I loose vacuum, all I need to do is keep
the line pointed straight up in the GPS screen, and I am not turning.
Also, my unit, a KLN90B favors track up. I don't get an "airplane" icon
in the other track postions (I get a diamond).

But seriously, you can use the track up line as a poor man's localizer
needle. Try it and see.

Jeez, John, you must be pretty thick. I wasn't talking out of my ass. I
quoted my reference in my original post. It's a book called "Why Men Don't
Listen and Why Women Can't Read Maps" by Allan and Barbara Pease. You can
find it for sale on Amazon.com but I couldn't find a home page for the
Peases. Pick it up. It's a good read and makes a lot of sense.

Shawn

"JohnH" > wrote in message
...
> Peter R. wrote:
>> ShawnD2112 > wrote:
>>
>>> Male preference is for north-up while female
>>> preference is for track-up, generally (all who are going to add how
>>> they are an exception can save the typing - this is a gross
>>> generalization).
>>
>> Gross generalization or not, where did you get this theory? I
>> suppose you don't have an Internet reference to educate those of us
>> equipped with an apparent female preference, eh?
>
> I doubt he can supply a link to his theory source unless his ass has an IP
> connection.
>

I have the 89/B and I do the same as Doug.

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI


Doug wrote:
> I went to track up because if I loose vacuum, all I need to do is keep
> the line pointed straight up in the GPS screen, and I am not turning.
> Also, my unit, a KLN90B favors track up. I don't get an "airplane" icon
> in the other track postions (I get a diamond).
>
> But seriously, you can use the track up line as a poor man's localizer
> needle. Try it and see.
>

In article >,
"Kai Glaesner" > wrote:

> Hello,
>
> ran into a discussion with a pilot-friend-of-mine on sunday about how to set
> up our GNS430 on a short IFR Trip.
>
> I prefer a North-Up mode, because it makes it easier for me to corelate
> what's on the screen with the paper-charts I have on my kneeboard.
>
> He wanted it to be in either Track-Up or (me complaining about a
> too-frequent need for redraw) Desired-Track-Up mode. Reason was he wanted
> the screen helping him to build a "mental-picture" about what's ahead and
> around.
>
> No consens was found so I would like to hear from you: are your a "North-Up"
> or a "Track-Up" sort of pilot (explanation why you are would help)?

USAF Navigators that I know and work with (former B-52, former KC-135, current
E-8C navs) use North-up. They tend to just fly waypoint to waypoint.

The two F-111 WSOs I worked with use Track-up. They spend a lot of time
making sure they don't hit the ground and want to have a better mental
picture of the ground features along the track.

IOW - high flyers use North-up and the low-level guys use Track-up.

(this has been discussed in rec.aviation in the past - but it's been a few
years).

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

> IOW - high flyers use North-up and the low-level guys use Track-up.

Interesting. I like track up, and I also like to fly real low.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> I teach track up. I would have you rotate your paper charts so they
> show track up. I think its much less confusing.
>
> -Robert, CFI
>
My primary instructor tried that one on me. I pointed out to him that I
like north up because then it is easier to read the text on the chart.
He thought I wouldn't be able to correlate the chart to the outside. I
showed him I could.

I basically told him to let me do it my way or I'd find another instructor.

By the way, to answer the original posters question, I'm a north-up guy.
All the really cool pilots are north-up.

;-)

"Jimmy B." > wrote:

> All the really cool pilots are north-up.

And all the really *hot* pilots are track-up. :)


--
Peter
























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"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> "Jimmy B." > wrote:
>
>> All the really cool pilots are north-up.
>
> And all the really *hot* pilots are track-up. :)

I use north-up unless I'm flying north, then I use track-up...

-Greg B.
Low wing!

In article >,
Jose > wrote:

> > IOW - high flyers use North-up and the low-level guys use Track-up.
>
> Interesting. I like track up, and I also like to fly real low.

low and fast? ;-)

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

In article >,
"Peter R." > wrote:

> > All the really cool pilots are north-up.
>
> And all the really *hot* pilots are track-up. :)

sierra hotel pilots is, I believe, the correct phrase.

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

> low and fast? ;-)

As fast as a Dakota will take me.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:36:12 +0200, "Kai Glaesner" >
wrote:

>Hello,
>
>ran into a discussion with a pilot-friend-of-mine on sunday about how to set
>up our GNS430 on a short IFR Trip.
>
>I prefer a North-Up mode, because it makes it easier for me to corelate
>what's on the screen with the paper-charts I have on my kneeboard.
>
>He wanted it to be in either Track-Up or (me complaining about a
>too-frequent need for redraw) Desired-Track-Up mode. Reason was he wanted
>the screen helping him to build a "mental-picture" about what's ahead and
>around.
>
>No consens was found so I would like to hear from you: are your a "North-Up"
>or a "Track-Up" sort of pilot (explanation why you are would help)?

I use track up. I find it easier to view the map in relation to what
I see out the window (and was trained to move the chart on my lap to
orient the same way). I find it also makes TIS target acquisition
faster because I can look at the map for the dot, then turn my head in
that direction - no re-orienting the map in my head and then figuring
out where they are then looking.

Track up.
relative position on screen is relative position around airplane.
I rotate maps for track up. I can read upside down I have a hard time
transposing shapes on the ground to the paper when they are not in the
same orientation.
Michelle

Kai Glaesner wrote:

>Hello,
>
>ran into a discussion with a pilot-friend-of-mine on sunday about how to set
>up our GNS430 on a short IFR Trip.
>
>I prefer a North-Up mode, because it makes it easier for me to corelate
>what's on the screen with the paper-charts I have on my kneeboard.
>
>He wanted it to be in either Track-Up or (me complaining about a
>too-frequent need for redraw) Desired-Track-Up mode. Reason was he wanted
>the screen helping him to build a "mental-picture" about what's ahead and
>around.
>
>No consens was found so I would like to hear from you: are your a "North-Up"
>or a "Track-Up" sort of pilot (explanation why you are would help)?
>
>Best Regards
>
>Kai
>
>--
>Return address is invalid to help stop junk mail.
>
>
>
>

Kai Glaesner wrote:
> Hello,
>
> ran into a discussion with a pilot-friend-of-mine on sunday about how to set
> up our GNS430 on a short IFR Trip.
>
> I prefer a North-Up mode, because it makes it easier for me to corelate
> what's on the screen with the paper-charts I have on my kneeboard.
>
Just to be perverse, I have my MX20 set up right now in North-Up mode
while the GNS480 spends most of it's time in the "arc-HSI" track up mode.

ShawnD2112 wrote:
> This argument is almost as insolvable as the "Newton or Bernoulli" or "high
> vs low wing" ones. This one basically comes down to how much testosterone
> you got in the womb. Male preference is for north-up while female
> preference is for track-up, generally (all who are going to add how they are
> an exception can save the typing -

Oddly enough, I had everything set in Track up in the Navion and Margy
made me switch the MX20 to Norht Up.

Peter R. wrote:
> "Jimmy B." > wrote:
>
>
>> All the really cool pilots are north-up.
>
>
> And all the really *hot* pilots are track-up. :)

All the pilots who actually get where they intended to go use whatever the hell
is easiest for them

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:36:12 +0200, "Kai Glaesner" >
wrote:

>Hello,
>
>ran into a discussion with a pilot-friend-of-mine on sunday about how to set
>up our GNS430 on a short IFR Trip.
>
>I prefer a North-Up mode, because it makes it easier for me to corelate
>what's on the screen with the paper-charts I have on my kneeboard.
>
>He wanted it to be in either Track-Up or (me complaining about a
>too-frequent need for redraw) Desired-Track-Up mode. Reason was he wanted
>the screen helping him to build a "mental-picture" about what's ahead and
>around.
>
>No consens was found so I would like to hear from you: are your a "North-Up"
>or a "Track-Up" sort of pilot (explanation why you are would help)?
>

To me? Makes no difference. I've used both modes.
Although I guess I do have a slight preference to track up.
OTOH I have no problem reorienting between the charts and the moving
map.

I get the basic information from the map but usually do most on the
GPS.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>Best Regards
>
>Kai

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Kai Glaesner > wrote:
>
> > Reason was he wanted
> > the screen helping him to build a "mental-picture" about what's ahead
and
> > around.
>
> Track up.
>
> I have both NEXRAD (actually WSI's NOWRAD) and traffic displayed on an
> MX20. Combine these two with projected GPS course line and predicted
> actual track while flying an IFR approach and IME track up provides a much
> more intuitive situational picture.

Track up....Sandel EHSI.

"Kai Glaesner" > wrote in message
m...
> [...]
> No consens was found so I would like to hear from you: are your a
> "North-Up"
> or a "Track-Up" sort of pilot (explanation why you are would help)?

Geez. Why don't you just ask "high-wing or low-wing" and get it over with.

Peter R. wrote:

> ShawnD2112 > wrote:
>
>
>>Male preference is for north-up while female
>>preference is for track-up, generally (all who are going to add how they are
>>an exception can save the typing - this is a gross generalization).
>
>
> Gross generalization or not, where did you get this theory? I suppose you
> don't have an Internet reference to educate those of us equipped with an
> apparent female preference, eh?
>

from the book mentioned:

*****************
In 1998, John and Ashley Sims created a two-way map of England. It had a
standard view for people travelling north and an upside-down view for
people travelling south. When men heard about it, they tended to laugh,
thinking it was a joke. Women said: "What a great idea!"

A British newspaper offered 100 maps free. It received requests from
15,000 women - and a handful of men. Yes, we're different all right.
*****************

found here:

http://www.associateprograms.com/search/newsletter032.shtml

I will not be held responsible for the scientific value and correctness
of the statement :-)

Personally, I use north-up on my car navigation most of the time (I'm
not a pilot). But when approaching junctions, the system switches to
track-up (and zooms in) automatically, and I find that very useful.

To me it seems that for the "big picture" north-up is more helpful,
while for locating yourself in the close surroundings, track-up might
even make it easier for men :-)

regards,
Friedrich

--
für reply bitte die offensichtliche Änderung an der Adresse vornehmen

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:17:05 GMT, Jose >
wrote:

>But one can get used to
>either way.

Yes, I think so. My sectional is always north up, and it doesn't
bother me in the slightest when I fly south. But my GPS is track-up,
because that's the way it came from the factory. It seems perfectly
natural to me.

Of course, in the Cub I have never noticed much sudden redrawing :)

I even think there may be an advantage to having the sectional
oriented one way and the Garmin another way. It reminds me that the
sectional is real, and that the Garmin might be in error, the way it
was when it moved Hampton NH airport to the Andes. I have not fully
recovered from that particular betrayal.



-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

Who cares. I just follow the purple line (pilotage?).

Seriously, I like Desired Track Up since it does provide a course
indication if the line is not vertical.

Isn't GPS great?

Ron Lee

> In 1998, John and Ashley Sims created a two-way map of England. It had a standard view for people travelling north and an upside-down view for people travelling south. When men heard about it, they tended to laugh, thinking it was a joke. Women said: "What a great idea!"
>
> A British newspaper offered 100 maps free. It received requests from 15,000 women - and a handful of men. Yes, we're different all right.
> *****************
>
> found here:
>
> http://www.associateprograms.com/search/newsletter032.shtml

Interesting. But driving is not the same as flying, inasmuch as
situational awareness is not critical, nor need it be three-dimensional.
There is no need to match up the ground with the map in the same way
as in flying.

But that's besides the point. The sex difference is interesting.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

> Seriously, I like Desired Track Up since it does provide a course
> indication if the line is not vertical.

Desired track up doesn't do that. Plain old "track up" is what does.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

GPS = Track up
Chart = North up

I tend to use the GPS for tactical situational awareness and use the chart
for more strategic SA.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://spf.pobox.com
____________________

In article >,
"John T" > wrote:

> GPS = Track up
> Chart = North up
>
> I tend to use the GPS for tactical situational awareness and use the chart
> for more strategic SA.

Just want to express admiration for the terse but effective phrasing
here: "tactical SA" and "strategic SA" seem very effective ways of
characterizing the two approaches.

Friedrich,

I hadn't thought about it until you mentioned it but I can now see that
north-up for big picture and track-up for close navigation is very useful
and pretty much what I end up doing. Good point.

Shawn
"Friedrich Ostertag" > wrote in message
...
> Peter R. wrote:
>
>> ShawnD2112 > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Male preference is for north-up while female preference is for track-up,
>>>generally (all who are going to add how they are an exception can save
>>>the typing - this is a gross generalization).
>>
>>
>> Gross generalization or not, where did you get this theory? I suppose
>> you
>> don't have an Internet reference to educate those of us equipped with an
>> apparent female preference, eh?
>>
>
> from the book mentioned:
>
> *****************
> In 1998, John and Ashley Sims created a two-way map of England. It had a
> standard view for people travelling north and an upside-down view for
> people travelling south. When men heard about it, they tended to laugh,
> thinking it was a joke. Women said: "What a great idea!"
>
> A British newspaper offered 100 maps free. It received requests from
> 15,000 women - and a handful of men. Yes, we're different all right.
> *****************
>
> found here:
>
> http://www.associateprograms.com/search/newsletter032.shtml
>
> I will not be held responsible for the scientific value and correctness of
> the statement :-)
>
> Personally, I use north-up on my car navigation most of the time (I'm not
> a pilot). But when approaching junctions, the system switches to track-up
> (and zooms in) automatically, and I find that very useful.
>
> To me it seems that for the "big picture" north-up is more helpful, while
> for locating yourself in the close surroundings, track-up might even make
> it easier for men :-)
>
> regards,
> Friedrich
>
> --
> für reply bitte die offensichtliche Änderung an der Adresse vornehmen

According to the Peases', the sex difference is based on how men and women's
brains are configured and developed. They are very different because, in
pre-feminist 20th century evolutionary terms, men and women fulfilled
entirely different roles to ensure the survival of the species. Fascinating
stuff and, as I said, should be mandatory reading.

Ever wonder why, when you get home from work, your wife wants to talk your
ear off when all you want is a half hour by yourself? Men typically speak
about 10,000-15,000 words in a day, and a day at work usually achieves that;
women use around 80,000. If she's only used 50,000 by the time you get
home, guess who's going to get the other 30,000 before bedtime? Why?
Women's linguistic centers in the brain are way more developed than mens' -
they provided the social center of a tribe and the collective
peacekeeping/relationship building to ensure the tribe stayed together for
survival in numbers. Meanwhile men were out hunting and keeping quiet so
they didn't spook the game, only speaking to communicate important
information. Men use language to communicate information, women use it to
build and sustain relationships.

If you've ever had an argument with your wife in the car about reading the
map, you ought to read the book. After you do, guarantee you'll never ask
your wife to read the map again (standard exception disclaimer implied).

Anyway, a fascinating and very funny look at how men and women are
different. Worth a read.

Shawn

"Jose" > wrote in message
. ..
>> In 1998, John and Ashley Sims created a two-way map of England. It had a
>> standard view for people travelling north and an upside-down view for
>> people travelling south. When men heard about it, they tended to laugh,
>> thinking it was a joke. Women said: "What a great idea!"
>>
>> A British newspaper offered 100 maps free. It received requests from
>> 15,000 women - and a handful of men. Yes, we're different all right.
>> *****************
>>
>> found here:
>>
>> http://www.associateprograms.com/search/newsletter032.shtml
>
> Interesting. But driving is not the same as flying, inasmuch as
> situational awareness is not critical, nor need it be three-dimensional.
> There is no need to match up the ground with the map in the same way as in
> flying.
>
> But that's besides the point. The sex difference is interesting.
>
> Jose
> --
> Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:38:46 GMT, "ShawnD2112"
> wrote:

>Ever wonder why, when you get home from work, your wife wants to talk your
>ear off when all you want is a half hour by yourself?

For a good part of a woman's life, this could be because she's spent
the preceding ten hours talking mostly with people shorter than four
feet, most of whose sentences begin with "I WANT!"

(Of course, a good part of her conversation with her husband will also
begin with his saying "I want".)



-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

"Kai Glaesner" > wrote in message
m...
> Hello,

> No consens was found so I would like to hear from you: are your a
"North-Up"
> or a "Track-Up" sort of pilot (explanation why you are would help)?

Track up.

Too true, too true.
"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:38:46 GMT, "ShawnD2112"
> > wrote:
>
>>Ever wonder why, when you get home from work, your wife wants to talk your
>>ear off when all you want is a half hour by yourself?
>
> For a good part of a woman's life, this could be because she's spent
> the preceding ten hours talking mostly with people shorter than four
> feet, most of whose sentences begin with "I WANT!"
>
> (Of course, a good part of her conversation with her husband will also
> begin with his saying "I want".)
>
>
>
> -- all the best, Dan Ford
>
> email (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
> Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
> Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
> the blog: www.danford.net
> In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

ShawnD2112 wrote:

> If you've ever had an argument with your wife in the car about reading the
> map, you ought to read the book. After you do, guarantee you'll never ask
> your wife to read the map again (standard exception disclaimer implied).

The whole discussion reminds me of another difference that I have seen
between myself and my girlfriend (note:VERY limited sample
population!):

Both my girl and I go online to get directions to get to a place. SHE
prefers to have turn by turn directions, and will not look at the map
portion at all. I, on the other hand, prefer to have the MAP, and will
only look over the turn-by-turn directions to determine at which
intersections I will be making Michigan lefts. When I look at the map,
it is always north up....

(For those who don't know, a Michigan left is either
1) Go past the intersection of the desired street, u-turn and turn
right onto the desired street
or 2) Turn right on the desired street and then make a uturn to the
desired direction.
For a non-native, they can be very confusing....and even worse when you
are giving directions to your visting parents!)

Doug Semler wrote:
>
> The whole discussion reminds me of another difference that I have seen
> between myself and my girlfriend (note:VERY limited sample
> population!):

Allow me to double your sample size. :)

> Both my girl and I go online to get directions to get to a place. SHE
> prefers to have turn by turn directions, and will not look at the map
> portion at all. I, on the other hand, prefer to have the MAP, and
> will only look over the turn-by-turn directions to determine at which
> intersections I will be making Michigan lefts.

My household operates the same.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://spf.pobox.com
____________________

Thank you guys. I now feel vindicated against the ignorant criticism I
first took when postulating this idea.

Shawn :-)

"John T" > wrote in message
m...
> Doug Semler wrote:
>>
>> The whole discussion reminds me of another difference that I have seen
>> between myself and my girlfriend (note:VERY limited sample
>> population!):
>
> Allow me to double your sample size. :)
>
>> Both my girl and I go online to get directions to get to a place. SHE
>> prefers to have turn by turn directions, and will not look at the map
>> portion at all. I, on the other hand, prefer to have the MAP, and
>> will only look over the turn-by-turn directions to determine at which
>> intersections I will be making Michigan lefts.
>
> My household operates the same.
>
> --
> John T
> http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
> http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
> Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://spf.pobox.com
> ____________________
>
>

Cub Driver wrote:

> On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:38:46 GMT, "ShawnD2112"
> > wrote:
>
>>Ever wonder why, when you get home from work, your wife wants to talk your
>>ear off when all you want is a half hour by yourself?
>
> For a good part of a woman's life, this could be because she's spent
> the preceding ten hours talking mostly with people shorter than four
> feet, most of whose sentences begin with "I WANT!"
>
> (Of course, a good part of her conversation with her husband will also
> begin with his saying "I want".)
>
>
>
> -- all the best, Dan Ford


I was married in 1976. We had a daughter in 1980, and in 1982 my then-wife
left us. I got a divorce 2 years later, though she was gone all that time.

since then I raised my daughter myself.

I cannot tell you the number of weekends where I CRAVED adult conversation
for just 20 minutes or so. Being with my daughter was great but I was
living in a child's world.

I can easily see how a mom - home all day long wiht the kid - would be ready
for a little adult companionship.



--
Saville

Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm

In article >,
"Kai Glaesner" > wrote:
> No consens was found so I would like to hear from you: are your a "North-Up"
> or a "Track-Up" sort of pilot (explanation why you are would help)?


My wife likes north-up, so that's what we use. I find it easier in most
cases, simply because I'm using to looking at an old Garmin 195 that
didn't do track-up. If I were new to moving map GPSs, I would probably
prefer track-up.



JKG

On 27 Jul 2005 11:01:42 -0700, "Doug Semler"
> wrote:

> 1) Go past the intersection of the desired street, u-turn and turn
>right onto the desired street
>or 2) Turn right on the desired street and then make a uturn to the
>desired direction.

I am shocked to discover that in another life I must have lived in
Michigan!



-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

> Cub Driver wrote:
>
> > 1) Go past the intersection of the desired street, u-turn and turn
> >right onto the desired street
> >or 2) Turn right on the desired street and then make a uturn to the
> >desired direction.
>
>
> I am shocked to discover that in another life I must have lived in
> Michigan!

It's MI's version of a procedure turn. For IDR (Instrument Driving
Rules) conditions
:)

Jonathan Goodish wrote:
> In article >,
> "Kai Glaesner" > wrote:
>> No consens was found so I would like to hear from you: are your a
>> "North-Up" or a "Track-Up" sort of pilot (explanation why you are
>> would help)?
>
>
> My wife likes north-up, so that's what we use. I find it easier in
> most cases, simply because I'm using to looking at an old Garmin 195
> that didn't do track-up. If I were new to moving map GPSs, I would
> probably prefer track-up.

How dare you slap poor Shawn in the face like that? ;)

Track up on the GPS, North up on the map.

I finally stopped using the GPS moving map as a primary display and went
to the CDI with big track digits as primary. Map update too slow on my
older 300XL.

Will be strange having my new 396 so obviously outperform my panel mount.

Kai Glaesner wrote:

> No consens was found so I would like to hear from you: are your a "North-Up"
> or a "Track-Up" sort of pilot (explanation why you are would help)?

My wife can't look at a map and figure out whether to turn left or
right.

But back in the days before Interstates, as we drove through a
featureless Nebraska town (aren't all Nebraska towns featureless?) we
had driven through only once before, a couple of years earlier, my
wife said "Turn here. I remember this green house."

Years later, I read of a study by a psychology prof at some
university who, under "carefully controlled conditions," as they say,
found that the females and male college students in his study were
eaually successful at "navigating" but that the females used the
method mentioned in this thread while the males had a "map in their
heads."

So your experience, and mine, are not at all unusual.

vince norris

Ross Richardson > wrote:
> I have the 89/B and I do the same as Doug.

I also have an 89/B and I used to use track up for the same reason. Making
the line go perfectly vertical meant I was exactly on track. Then one time
I was flying with a pilot that claimed that when flying IFR he was taught
that north up was prefered to be able to more easily know where you are
in a complicated approach. I switched to north up expecting to just try
it out for a while and go back if I didn't like it. North up does turn
out to have one unexpected benefit for me. Most of my trips are east to
the beach and west back home. Since my display is much wider than it is
tall, I don't have to zoom out as far and still see what's ahead (and
behind). Also, keeping on course hasn't turned out to be a problem since
I have a VOR needle slaved to the GPS and if I switch to the CDI display
on the 89/B I get another CDI, but also a pretty responsive "actual
heading" number that I can turn to match the "desired heading" that gives
me the same comfort level that the straight up vertical line in track up
mode gave me.

> Regards, Ross
> C-172F 180HP
> KSWI


> Doug wrote:
> > I went to track up because if I loose vacuum, all I need to do is keep
> > the line pointed straight up in the GPS screen, and I am not turning.
> > Also, my unit, a KLN90B favors track up. I don't get an "airplane" icon
> > in the other track postions (I get a diamond).
> >
> > But seriously, you can use the track up line as a poor man's localizer
> > needle. Try it and see.
> >